MEN ARE FROM VENUS
I’m frustrated!
I feel like we learn so much about the male’s yetzer hara/evil inclination causing him to sin – and all of that translates into “what the woman must do to prevent the male from sinning.”
It drives me mad.
I realize that there must be reasons in the spiritual realms reflecting the evil manifested down here in the lower worlds, but why must the JEWISH woman make themselves less attractive than the stereotypical female? SO he has desires and certain bad tendencies… but wouldn’t we rather our men look at US rather than at women outside of the faith?
And do our males learn what we are learning? I doubt there’d be nearly as much corruption in our systems if their mentors were just open with them!
I wonder…I really do…
I wonder whether they realize how aware WE are and how unaware they can be…
Comments?
I feel like we learn so much about the male’s yetzer hara/evil inclination causing him to sin – and all of that translates into “what the woman must do to prevent the male from sinning.”
It drives me mad.
I realize that there must be reasons in the spiritual realms reflecting the evil manifested down here in the lower worlds, but why must the JEWISH woman make themselves less attractive than the stereotypical female? SO he has desires and certain bad tendencies… but wouldn’t we rather our men look at US rather than at women outside of the faith?
And do our males learn what we are learning? I doubt there’d be nearly as much corruption in our systems if their mentors were just open with them!
I wonder…I really do…
I wonder whether they realize how aware WE are and how unaware they can be…
Comments?
posted by yoniQua at 1:02 PM
14 Comments:
first of all, modesty in thought, speech, and dress applies to men just as much as to women, though women do have, shall we say, more to be modest abut…
It’s hard and a challenge to women as well as men to accomplish this task of modesty.
Let’s first understand what is the stereotypical female – a malnourished, puffy-lipped, half naked woman…
Preferring that we walk around immodestly so that our husbands look at us versus other women is totally ridiculous, because making ourselves immodest desensitizes our husbands to the outside physical. The whole purpose of modesty is to savor the beauty and uniqueness of a woman. By making the husband sensitive to modesty will cause him to look away from the bad (like any G-d fearing Jew would).
This is exactly what these stereotypical women were designed to do – just that – to make people obsessed with the physicality of this world.
The media advertises these women as idols. It seriously is the avoda zara(idol worship) of today! We worship, we desire, yearn… to be like them. We copy the way they dress, the way they walk and talk, etc. Becoming totally obsessed with our bodies – it’s the test of today’s generation…
Something we have to fight against, not succumb to!
I like what you said. One thing, though…you think way too highly of men, don’t you think? (“…making your husband sensitive to modesty will cause him to look away from bad like any G-dfearing Jew would.”)
Just to challenge you to think Seatmate- your whole premise towards tznius was that it is a woman's guard to her husband.
Few problems:
1. This doesn't explain being Tznius in front of other men.
2. This doesn't explain being Tznius before marriage.
3. Presumably there would be a lesser degree of Tznius between a husband and wife.
Yoniqua - probably true.
But I think that we could be just as sinful as men, only our fear of G-d keeps us from sinning.
Nemo - I hear you. now I would like to hear what you have to say on the subject.
BTW is it possible, Nemo, that your alias is "Hypocritical desires"???
... And I like to keep my desires non-hypocritical.
I appreciate all the popularity, but I'm in no way an expert on the matter. I haven't done too much research on the topic of tznius.
My take on it is that women have to be tznius for two reasons: 1} others and 2} themselves.
Obviously it reflects badly and causes all sorts of illustrious thoughts to men and others when women are dressed scantily. So as not to cause others to sin on their account and also in order to save personaly dignity, there is a concept called tznius. It also is a show of modesty and seperation from being lascivious and showing that there is more to life than carnal desires and vanity.
However, Tznius is hardly a show of personal modesty {for either men or women, BTW}. Tznius has it's phsychological aspect and is even an important factor Bein Adam Lamokom.
Psychologically, and I'm sure there's something in Torah to this affect, being modest and covered up gives someone a bit of personal comfort and respect. Like the Seatmate said above- albeit from a different approach- being uncovered and exposed is making one iconic, living up to the image of being a sexual being. One feels the need to conform to a society which is structured around immorality and needs to prove themselves with outwardness. They lose focus of what is contained inside of them, i.e., their mind and personality. It desensitizes the man or woman to anything sublime. When one is covered though, and this includes thought as well as clothing, they can be themselves and not have to sell themselves to the other gender. {The truth is that this applies to styles of clothing too, but I'm not gonna go there now}. The person has moved beyond outward appeal.
Then there is the relationship that Tznius forms with Hashem. Shulchan Oruch says that through Tznius, one is Mevatel themselves to Hashem. They come to recognize Hashem and this makes them submit to his dominion. This doesn't mean to say that they're just going to start keeping Halacha, but rather that through laws of Tznius, they recognize that Hashem is constantly looking over them. This in turn affects every aspect of our life. We are told about seemingly trivial things about exposing ourselves that we must not do out of recognition of Hashem. In the bathroom we cannot expose ourselves more than necessary. When changing our clothes in Chadrei Chadarim, in the most innermost room, far away from the view of any human eye and even with the lights out, we must still have this tznius. We must change under the covers of our bed. Some say that you must even change your socks beneath your blanket. All this is not so that you should not be seen, you cover yourself to subdue yourself in the presence of Hashem. Not because he doesn't know what your hiding under there, but because this affects you on a personal level and brings Him into your life.
To be content, a woman needs to feel loved and depends on emotional support from her spouse. Genuine emotional support can come only from one with whom you share reciprocal love, and not from one with whom you are in love (and who is in love with you).
So what's the difference? The evolution from being in love to actually loving, is enormously dependant on mutual respect. In short, inorder to recieve the support she needs to feel satisfied, a woman must be respected by her spouse. She requires not that her husband like her body, but that he respect and love HER; inclusive of her mind, her soul, and yes, her body.
Whilst a man may be quicker to glance fleetingly at a scantily clad thing with a nice shape and attractive hair, to respect a woman he must see her as just that. A woman. This requires that he recognise the person; and by drawing a man's eyes to her body, a woman distracts him from being able to get to know HER, and makes it harder for him to love her. In fact a man's respect for a woman dramatically enhances her aesthetic appeal to him, so that a woman whom one didnt find attractive can with enough respect, become exceedingly beautiful; and particularly for frum men, this respect is facilitated by modesty.
Of course your husband should look at you, but consider this. Would you prefer he looked at you with adoration and longing borne of true love and respect, or with panting desire born of his lust for your body. The dsire borne of lust is transient, however the emotional connection and longing borne of true love is like wine. It just keeps getting stronger and better.
Yes Doc, I agree totally, but I think that we do Mitzvos for ourselves and not for others. Therefore I placed the stress on the individual and not on their spouse.
If you are a girl who wants to love your husbad, you have to make sure that you are not putting out lustful vibes and that you know that your connection is one of love. I think the girl gains more from Tznius than then man.
The same would be vice versa.
Wow. Guys, I am blown away by the extent to which yall went to, to properly expound on the topic. So who is teaching us? Well, that’d be our principal, most probably. My friend told me that she was just taught that if a girl’s face looks beautiful to a guy, both he and she have a sin. A pretty face?! Now i feel not just an excitement when I hear a whistle, but also guilt – well at least I probably should lol. (unless its an arab in lod and then I just want to vomit.)
Doc – I appreciate you zooming in on the unsaid here. See, when I wrote this post I was just venting frustration in general at the whole marriage thing. Till now I thought it was all peaches and cream and now we hear bout how oh, no double-couple-dating once married, we shouldn’t ask what friends the husband is inviting over, etc.
It makes sense, obviously, but it’s unnerving.
Oh, and about the whole, “being tznius isn’t just to prevent the guy from sinning..” fine. But that’s the latest thing we learned. Before, it was about self-respect, conserving the kedusha, that we’re a chelek eloka, etc. Now it’s also this, that’s all.
And yes, I'm all for the concentration on intellectual, real, internal connection being the focus rather than the lust and the physical... In non-shomer-negia relationships as soon as the couple decides to get physical, they lose that sense of objectivity and real connection. Sometimes we think that we'll enjoy this immediate satisfaction, and then it bites us in the bum so hard, cuz you lose the realness and the truth...
Nemo, I agree 100% that one’s performance of a mitzvah is about their relationship with G-d, and not about anyone else (if the mitzvah is done lishmah). My previous comment was in response not to yours, but to the original post which expressed frustration at the requirement that observant women make them selves less attractive, and the confusion about frum men being drawn to look at non-Jewish (or non-observant) women rather than the ones in their own community.
Yoniqua. The primary halachic reason for a woman not emphasising her beauty, is to prevent a man sinning on her account. I dare say that if a woman is going about her daily business and a man happens to commit a particular sin based on his appreciation of her innate appearance, it may not be considered a sin on her part so much as if she spent extra time enhancing her appearance before going out. For surely the reason a woman beautifies herself before going out in public is to appear more attractive. So even be the conscious intention not specifically for the sake of attracting men on the street, nonetheless by deliberately enhancing her appearance to satisfy her vanity, a woman is in fact responsible albeit indirectly, for increasing the likelihood of men committing a particular sin.
There is a concept that “shivim panim l’Torah” –the Torah has seventy faces. This means that every concept in the Torah is multifaceted, and has many dimensions all of which are valid and complimentary (even if they create intellectual argument), and each of which makes a necessary contribution towards the completeness of the Torah which is absolutely true in It’s entirety. So while the halachic aspect may SEEM to be a bit superficial relative to the whole self-respect and kedushah side of the argument, they are both actually integral components of the Torah’s perspective and direction on the issue. Try to see them not as separate or different points of view, but as two aspects which combine to contribute towards a wholesome and real perspective on the issue that becomes more beautiful the more broadly we understand it.
Who's saying anything otherwise?
Bee keepers indeed? Slightly out of context I think.
This entire discussion is about the halachos of tznius. Statements about beautifying one's self causing man to sin are meeant specifically regarding breaches to the halachos of tznius, not making yourself look non-ugly.
Mr. Hypocrite, you took this too far out. Stop asking whos teaching us, its true. Something new to us all, but true nonetheless. You just sound fiery but youre not saying facts. No one is disagreeing w you, btw.
okay.. the men dissagree and me, a woman agree with yoniqua that were tnius for the man. yes, ultimately we benefit, but that's not the essence of the mitzva. why do you think woman have to be perfectly tznius during nidda? why is it that she can't wear perfume? why is it that he can't see her attractive hair??
so that her horny man won't drip!
tell me OTHERWISE and i'll be convinced.
Firstly, Mazel Tov, Binyan Adei Ad, etc....
It's an undeniable fact that Tznius is to protect the sexes from one another. That's surely the simplest Halachik reason. Why else would you have to cover up in front of people and not in the shower?
This plays out more with women covering themselves than man having to cover themselves cause, like someone mentioned, let's face it, women have more to "hide".
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