Marry me.
I am kinda fired-up about this right now...
I've been taught that, "In the place of a Baal Teshuva, a Tzaddik cannot stand." (BT=person who has returned to his Jewish roots, Tzaddik=righteous person)
So I demand to understand why it is that some ppl are, as I have decided, too STUCK UP and FULL OF THEMSELVES to accept a Baal Teshuva into their family....
It really makes me sad. Not for myself - for I have come to terms with it. But for all of the BTs who have plunged into the "frum" (religiously Jewish) world against the secular current of their families’... Well, how do you think THEY feel? Rotten, that's how. What a lovely slap in the face: "Well, I'm sorry to inform you, but So and So is not interested in marrying someone who is not Frum From Birth (FFB)." Gee.
Here is the supporting argument for someone who feels that way:
- He wants his kids to have frum extended family.
- He wants that she should have no "past".
- He worries that she may be more "experienced" than he.
- He fears the world she knew and has turned her back on.
- He wants to relate to his wife in the way that they were brought up.
Now... All of those reasons I have heard. All of those reasons may be just.
But when (and this applies to whether the guy is BT OR the girl) the girl is from a FAMILY where the FAMILY became more religious, the first reason does not apply. She may not even HAVE much of a past. On the contrary, she may have a past that she not only regrets so completely, but that she works extra hard for the rest of her life to be the very very best she can be! She’s worked so hard, and her only wish is to marry a good “mentch” of a guy so that her children have whom to emulate. She might love to marry a BT, but would also welcome a husband who was always frum. She may not want reminders of her previous life. She may want to move only forward. (Again, he/she.)
It is absolutely disheartening to hear that the “frum” world (generalization, yes) condemns BTs in the "Sidduchim Marriages" department, when (GO LUBABS!) they’re all ABOUT bringing people closer to Judaism. It’s like, ‘Sure, I’ll kasher your kitchen, but don’t ever think I’d eat in it.’ You know what I mean?
[Side note: It is also frustrating when, in some circles, the BTs get more attention than your mainstream frum person… I’m talking congregation-type settings. Wtvr.]
By the way, I have a theory, which may be shared by others, that we are all Baalei Teshuva. How? We all STRIVE to grow. We all DO work on ourselves and do our best to improve. But sometimes, that is not enough – to TRY.
The following is my support for BT’s –
- Have you noticed that the BT’s have that extra FIRE that FFBs, more often than not, have hidden (notice that I did not say “do not have”)?
- Do you see the constant growth and maturing?
- It is important to them that they keep increasing their knowledge of Judaism and improving their practices.
- They have an appreciation that someone who is frum from birth cannot have.
Bottom Line: Passion. Appreciation.
That is a BT.
(You MUST have some thought on this.)
posted by yoniQua at 5:08 PM
19 Comments:
I think that there is a difference in mindset between soemones FFB and someone who is Ba'al Teshuva, even for many years. Like you said, BTs are about passion, while for the FFB, it might just be their default lifestyle {no pejorative intended}. While the marriage of the two approaches may often times be successful, more often than not the religiosities might be conflicting.
Practical and relevant example:
A FFB could get away with making a blanket statement about how all Arabs should die and everyone would accept that as his emotions speaking. If a BT were to hear a Frum person say that, they'll immediately go on the offense and question how a religious person, who is supposed to respect innocent human life, could possibly make such a statement.
This is just an example but this can play out in many other situations also. Carelessly breaking certain Halachos or speaking to girls might be other examples of when a BT might be more prudent and the FFB much more desensitized.
I think that the earlier one enters into the Frum world/system, the more adapt they are and more accepting of everyone's lifestyle. Frumkeit today is a melting pot. Depending on the age that a person or their family are Mekareved, the more or less likely they are going to be percieved as BT.
are u bt?
This is an area that's always confused me. I have a BT cousin who married a FFB daughter of a rabbi. Another BT cousin's children have all (so far) married FFBs.
I've become religious later in life and am only looking at other BTs. There are too many attitude differences for me to be comfortable with a FFB man.
I think nemo's right. A person who becomes BT at 18 (or younger) is much more likely to fit in with a FFB spouse.
What worried me are the stories I've heard of children of BTs not being considered suitable for the children of FFBs.
Ahuva - I think that you are doing the proper thing for yourself, looking into BTs only.
"What worried me are the stories I've heard of children of BTs not being considered suitable for the children of FFBs." - YES. THAT is what "inspired" this entry of mine.
In response to Anonymous - I'd probably be best off not responding in detail here - email me:femmefatale48@gmail.com
BUT I will say the following - because, as Nemo said, ones status DOES depend on WHEN one becomes BT, and as Ahuva mentioned (below 18 as less difficult) as well.
My dad grew up in a modern orthodox/traditional community. My mom was completely secular and over the years, after marrying my father, became more and more knowledgeable in Judiasm. There are obviously stages, but the ones that I have considered as the biggest milestones are: new dishes (gone with the chalav akum ones), my dad got a black hat for my brother's bar mitzvah, and one other huge change that was a shock to me(ill respect my parents by not giving details! :)
These 3 changes completely changed my family's 'status' in our community...Which truthfully took me a while to get used to.
This all happened when I was in 9th grade - already away in a Chabad high school. Problem was, I was not involved in these family decisions, and therefore felt like my family was moving forward and leaving me behind. I was fine with that, I preferred at that time, to do my own thing anyway. It took a bit longer for me to identify with being a "Lubavitcher" and then finally a "chossid" - different stages, btw.
Seminary definitely "sensitized" me. Thank G-d I went.
The biggest thank you goes to my parents who, through all of this, have given me the responsibilty and trust to make my own decisions. Sure, I may be the guinea pig as the oldest, but I am the strong, hopefully ever-growing spiritually Chabad-nik that I am, due to them. Thanks, Mom & Dad. Love you guys.
all these TTBs, ORGs, FFTs...its very confusing. ridiculus too. but it shuoldnt bother anyone who's looking for a spouse, because it just narrows your path down more, doesn't it? I once heard someone say that even the superficiality of a guys wish to marry a girls whos te size of a toothpick is G-d's way of helping people narrow down their choices. so this is helping you out, believe it or not.
if theyre not looking for someone like you, it obviously wasnt meant to be.
and by the way- thanks for the requested breakup of the paragraphs. i usually get headaches and cross-eyed.
nom - i know its you! why are you sore? from that night in the hotel?
oyyshh sorry! love you! lol.
so, according to what you said, MEN have the easier deal here - bc theye more superficial, so their searches are more "narrow"-ed down lol...
But... us girlies.. we have the harder time.. also bc FACE IT - THERE ARE NOT VERY MANY GOOD GUYS OUT THERE.
Had to say it.
Dare to disagree? heh heh...
I agree that Jews should have the mentality to be baale teshuva as that should bring about growth and a real connection to Judaism.
Someone that is BT doesn't have deeply rooted family minchagim. Also, they don't always have the comfort of being able to stay in their parents' house for shabbos - making visiting inlaws difficult.
There are some good reasons why individuals don't want to marry someone who is BT, however a whole group of people shouldn't be taught that mentality. Also, it shouldn't be the determining factor when dating.
Yoniqua, if someone doesn't want to date you because of your "background" he isn't for you. He wouldn't be able to fully understand of you, simply because he wouldn't try. You don't need that. You need someone that's going to love and appreciate every aspect of what makes you you. It's just frustrating right now.
Your family became frum when you were in the 10th grade. You went to an orthodox high school and then on to seminary. I'm having a hard time picturing a reasonable man who wouldn't want to date you because of your "background." That's just absurd.
You don't get the "BT pass" either, do you? No one looks strangely at my not being married at 32 because I'm a recent BT. But you've been in the frum world since seminary.
Ahuva, I'm 19.
And ur right, I also don't know what decent man wouldn't want to date me... :)
And as I said, there are many different types and stages of being Baal Teshuva. You are definitely more BT than I am, but to some people, the label that applies to my mother - makes me a BT as her duaghter, somehow. I don't know... the whole thing is just not what it should be.
I'm not saying all of this because I was recently turned down by someone who felt this way, but I did recently have a conversation about it with someone, and it upset me very much.
I do wish you the best of luck in finding the "husband" and "father" and not just "a guy." :)
Yoniqua-I enjoyed this post-I'm relieved that someone finally brought this up. As a convert (in the process) I figure that I will most likely end up with a BT, because most Frum families wouldn't have me-even though it's completely horrible to ever remind a convert (or BT) that he/she came from a different background.
I have more in common with BT's because they understand what I had to go through to get to this point and potential issues in the future. A lot of BT's I know also have problems with their families not being accepting of their desire to lead a more religous life. I'm very happy to have come across your blog...
I agree with Nemo that there MAY be conflicting attitudes etc.
However, that is only the individuls themselves. Hence it should not matter that one has siblings who aren't Frum - if they are ffb, as well as, BT parents etc.
its unfair. but didnt ur mum ever tell you. life's not fair.
yoniqua, ull end up with someone completely and utterly perfect for you. baal teshuva or not. and live happily ever after. imh. amen.
aml xx
GRAJ - i miss u so much! Thanks for the blessing... i know ull marry similarly... brothers? jk.
u can keep an eye/ear out for me aight? :)
paradox - welcome!
thing is, whether we think things should run a bit differently, there is a reason for everything. the challenge is accepting it and going even further - embracing the fact of life with enthusiasm. Thats tough, but do-able. G'luck.
Ruby - I wish you luck with your conversion. I have at least three friends who have converted, two married BTs and one is with an FFB. They are all BH very happy and doing well. I wish you the very best!
I have a small complaint. Why, if by the age of 19, I have become 100% involved with Lubavitch communities (my hometown, chabad day school, high school, summer programs, head counselor now in a CGI daycamp, and doing shluchot work iy"h this coming school year), should I still have the label. It's not the label that bothers me - I'm proud of my family. It is the "ooohh" I get when I explain that my family wasn't always as observant. Why should that make a difference? Look at us now! My mom is PTO head of the chabad day school, running all these programs, so active and always learning... i could go on and on but I'll end this and get back to my campers.
Think about this: how is it that some BTs are more observant than some of your "FFBs"?
Nemo, i know you mentioned something about being sensitized or not, and that is the answer. i'm just bringing it up again.
i agree with sore, the less poeple want to date you, the easier it is for you. why would someone want to date 100 poele instead of 5! in the end g-d brings you your mate, so if hes hes part of that 5, thats all you need!
and regarding bt's and ffb's, i dont know many bt's who want to marry ffb's. but just like i have met some ffb's who were just worldly and not judgemental and not sheltered as bt's, ive also met bt's who would fit much better with an ffb..
silly to make blanket statemens like that..
oh well..
thank g-d for us bt's bringing some diversity to the pool :P
I can sympathize for the frustration one must feel when searching for a soulmate and feeling limited by a factor of ones past which can not be changed. Wether a person is bron into a frum home or not, is not up to him/her its up to G-d. But to take it from a different perspective, theres only one person out there for us right? If as a BT your preoccupied with marrying or marrying your kids off to a FFB, arnt you sort of saying that a BT isnt good enough either? Its not just the other way around. I think people have to know themselves and have the confidence that G-d will lead us to the one were supposed to end up with and if we're fretting about the lables we put on eachother, its just give us unneccesary stress. Love ZEV ~ Ill marry you yoniqua
ZEV - very funny, girl. Notice the pic i posted of us... and yes, ill marry you!!!! :)
nemo - its interesting what you said about an FFB making blanket statements like that. Sometimes I find myself "chatoo"ing at an A from a bus in Jeru, but then I'll see how in the airport they make every single Middle Eastern-looking fellow have extra searching, etc, and I think, "how unfair... he passed the metal detector for G-d sake!"
And I would question... Why, if we are taught to have a refined character, are we not encouraged to treat all people equally - meaning, I was never encouraged not to hate our enemies. Obviously, they are enemies for a reason - they hate us. But then, we are taught how we are peaceful, loving, etc... how can we then "hate" them back?
In farbrengens, we have addressed the subject of mitnagdim and how even though in the olden days they despised Lubavitch for their audacity in spreading Judaism in the streets, Rebbeim still responded with love. But in the face of real enemies -
In Israel this past year, i gained a true understanding of why i feel the way i do about our nation's oppressors. And my feelings became even stronger, to the point that i now make blanket statements like, "kill them all"!
But where did it come from? Why was this feeling of hatred engrained in me since i was in elementary school? was i even aware then of the manner in which our oppressors treated my people?
im not writing what A stands for here, because I have very liberal extended family, and would not wish to cause any issues... and to save myself from hate mail!
Oh, I see, BTs are assumed to have wild exotic "pasts" that they are running from, even when, in fact, many if not most may have been quite rightoues in his or her secular life. Not only is it an arrogant assumption on the part of FFBs (that no one but those of their kind can be chaste and rigtheous), but it is a slanderous misjudgment of BTs.
real lubabs and i know many will marry a what you refer to as a BT in a heartbeat dont diss Chabad they are not like that at all
ahem, al - i am chabad.
you totally missed my point.
i didnt say that they dont marry BT's - i am specifically talking about those who WONT.
reread the post, please.
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